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  1. #26
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    Judging from the society that I so shamefully call myself apart of, no, it can't be a measure of intelligence.
    Problem now is that I can't find anything to necessarily disagree with in your post, if only because you made me think that perhaps they do have a society, just alot different than ours. It all comes down to how you measure intelligence/achievements I guess. So this would be an incredibly roundabout argument.
    I had something else to add to this, but it just slipped from my mind. Will post when it comes back.
    Oh and I didn't understand your second post at all, I was saying that you can't use behavior in animals or humans as signs of intelligence, because you said that outward signs (behavior) are not accurate signs of intelligence, but then said that humans and animals have similar behavioral patterns. Just seemed like a sort of contradiction is all
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  2. #27
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    I was saying that while we can't communicate with each other very effectively we can notice how similar we are on a fundamental level. That's all I was trying to get at.

  3. #28
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    What fundamental level are you saying? We all need food, and the basic necessities, and we share similar emotions, but other than that how do you mean?
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  4. #29
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    That was what I meant. We seem to have the same aspirations and sustenance, I think that unites us in a very universal way, personally.

  5. #30
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    Oh, as do I, but humans also feel a need for... something, more, do we not? Of course, animals might as well, but I consider it to be highly unlikely that they do so on the same intellectual and philosophical level that we do, if they do feel the same.
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  6. #31
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    It could be argued that perhaps it's so far advanced it appears that they are simple. Again, unless you're some kind of nature empath it's impossible to claim either way is more likely than the other.

  7. #32
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    Well unless The Editor decides to post something stupid again, I think this topic is pretty much done for now. Was fun though, thanks
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  8. #33
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    I think the editor tried to a couple times then deleted them. Nice talking with you, it's nice to see this forum in use again.

  9. #34
    Defenestration is imminent pichubro's Avatar
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    I loved how this topic went from if all people can have the potential to do something, to if animals can have the same potential as us in ruling the world.

    Who knows, maybe dinosaurs had a society that millions of years just erased over time. (Unlikely, I know. But if we all disappeared it could seem the same way to the future generation world-rulers. Mt. Rushmore won't last forever.)

  10. #35
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    Haha, me too, I'm pretty sure I said something about it when I first noticed the topic change. I don't think I entirely explained my first thoughts very well though, so I'm glad something came of it.
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  11. #36
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    I enjoy when topics change topics, many restrict that as "offtopic" when really it's just following the natural train of thought.

  12. #37
    In Soviet Russia, Editor is protected from YOU!! The Editor's Avatar
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    I don't remember deleting any posts...

    Just because something is created by society doesn't mean it can't evolve. Religion and science started out as the way some people thought about some things, whether spiritual or physical, and since that time they've both changed a great deal. Religion has divided into umpteen parts, and scientific theories change in light of new evidence. The same thing can happen with morality. For example, slavery was once considered to be a perfectly moral thing to do. It was only when some people compared it against other aspects of morality that they decided maybe it wasn't such a good thing. Everything changes, including society itself. Capitalism hasn't been around forever.

    As for the "Oh God what have I done?" scenario, I find it highly unlikely that said soldier hadn't been taught in his younger years that killing was wrong. It doesn't matter what people now may think, if you've been taught for years and years that killing is bad you'd feel the same way in the same situation.

  13. #38
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    Disillusionment with old ideas is a part of life. What you're describing only lasts so long before someone starts to make decisions for themselves. Not to mention the period it takes getting them to believe it, if you notice it's very difficult teaching children because there are some things they won't believe in. I think that's testament enough how morality is more than simply a societal invention. I'd say it's the other way around, societies morals are derived from the individuals and the overlap is what we know as laws.

  14. #39
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    Stein has the right idea, society isn't some all-knowing entity, it's made of people, individuals. Society is shaped and formed by those individuals as a whole.
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

  15. #40
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    For example, slavery was once considered to be a perfectly moral thing to do. It was only when some people compared it against other aspects of morality that they decided maybe it wasn't such a good thing.
    uh slavery was never abolished because people decided it was immoral or anything. if it fit with industrial capitalism as much well as it fit with agrarian feudalism then it would still be around no matter what the moral arguments were, arguments which existed as long as slavery existed. also i would say the majority would have considered slavery immoral but since it benefited the ruling class the institution was upheld. changes in what the ruling class decides would best increase their profit and business is not the same thing as societal morality changing.

    morality has more or less remained the same among humans - it is immoral to do harm or infringe on the rights of others unless doing so would stop them or others from doing harm on infringing on the rights of others. i don't believe this has never not been the case in human societies.

  16. #41
    In Soviet Russia, Editor is protected from YOU!! The Editor's Avatar
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    I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved. Sorry everybody.

  17. #42
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    merked

  18. #43
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    The Editor and Mario The Black Knight, please try to stay on topic and not make discussion stray towards personal feuds.

    All stay on topic means is don't randomly change the topic, just try to make a decently flowing conversation. So don't go in and go 'BANANAS ARE COOL RIGHT', just make an entirely new topic.

  19. #44
    So...noisy Stein's Avatar
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    Obviously that's not what I was advocating when I said following the train of thought.

  20. #45
    In Soviet Russia, Editor is protected from YOU!! The Editor's Avatar
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    Aye aye, cap'n.

  21. #46
    princeso Kirby's Avatar
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    Think about this we are gentically almost identical to each other chimpazees are 99.9% the same as us even red mold is 30% common with us

  22. #47
    The Pyro Politician NidoKING's Avatar
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    And yet look at what that .1% difference does.
    I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

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