The Problem of Suffering

**The Editor** · 12-14-2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by leo33wii

God does good from time to time. We just ignore it.

Sorry, I was distracted by the evil.

**trixie** · 12-15-2009, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow

I wish a muslim was here to read this and kill you over it.

Now why would that happen? The Islamic God is the same as the Christian/Jewish God.

**Kirby** · 12-15-2009, 03:37 AM

Ed's just angry cuz he is getting sent to hell in almost all of the religons that have it

**trixie** · 12-15-2009, 07:20 AM

God does not do evil,Ed.

**Shadow** · 12-15-2009, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by The Editor

You mean Job? Truth be told that seems a pretty sadistic thing to do.
"I bet I can get this guy to stop believing in you by making his life hell," says the Devil.
Rather than saying "No! That would be terribly cruel. I won't let you do that to a man who has shown such love for me," (which would surely be what a nice God would do), instead God says, "You're on."

Keep in mind that after that trial god gave job twice what he had before.

Now to catch up on this thread...

**The Editor** · 12-15-2009, 03:49 PM

I think I speak for the majority of humanity when I say that I'd rather not suffer in the first place.

**The Editor** · 12-15-2009, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by trixie

God does not do evil,Ed.

Then who does? The devil that God is perfectly capable of controlling but doesn't?

**The Editor** · 12-15-2009, 04:03 PM

Here's something for you to think about, religious people.

Let us suppose that somewhere in the world there is a doctor who is infecting young children with ebola, diphtheria, cholera, etc.. When the police finally catch him they ask him why he did it, and he says that it's for a good cause. But he can't explain what that cause is, and there is no evidence of any good coming from what he has done. In fact all anyone can find is evidence that this doctor has been causing great suffering to these children for no reason at all. He would be locked up and everybody would agree that that was the just thing to do.

Now look at God. He causes innocent children to suffer by creating diseases and natural disasters, and when we ask why we are told that it is for a good reason, but none of us can see any evidence that there is a good reason behind this suffering. Surely we shouldn't just close our eyes, cover our ears and accept that it must be good because God wouldn't do it otherwise? We don't know that God wouldn't do something evil. We can't know that. God could have lied to us when he said he was good. All we know is that evil things happen because God either makes them happen or lets them happen. Is that just? Is that fair? God shouldn't be treated any differently to anyone else, and on that basis I insist that God is evil.

**Dogar The Brave** · 12-15-2009, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shadow

I wish a muslim was here to read this and kill you over it.

All three worship atleast one of the same gods.

**God** · 12-15-2009, 08:10 PM

does shadow truly believe that the god of the jewish and christian faiths are different from the god of the islamic faith

**trixie** · 12-16-2009, 12:00 AM

Just because you don't understand a reason,or think of one,doesn't mean there's no reason at all.

And Ed,the Devil or Satan,or the Dark One - whatever you prefer to call him- is the one that's evil. God can control him,but what's the point? People themselves decide to listen to the Devil.

For instance,in your example, the doctor in question would be locked up,it's true,because he couldn't explain his reasons.
If his reason WAS to cause pain and suffering,it's because he's listened to "the devil" and gone against his conscience- or "God" if you will. Now God will not FORCE him to believe or do anything he hasn't chosen to do for himself. That's a kind of bullying - the Devil doesn't force anyone either.

All they can do is tempt you one way or the other with potential rewards and it all comes down to choice.

Now you're saying that God "lets them happen" so he's evil.
I think most problems around the world occur because of someone's greed. If they'd just listened to their religious teachings (no religion tells you to be greedy and they all ask us to be tolerant and kind), I'm sure none of them would have a lot of problems.

Natural disasters: Do you think God is there for humans alone? What about the planet,the trees,the animals? Aren't they at least as important as a bunch of humans who have lost most of the moral values taught in these religious texts and the like?

**Qoorl** · 12-16-2009, 04:42 AM

I'd like to point out once again. Anyone here READ the Bible? At LEast the Old Testament. Jesus says it but, but the Big Y NEVER claims to be good. He just says worship me and I'll take care of you. He's All knowing, All powerful and jealous. He created the world for the reason we all create... to make something beautiful. An ulterior motive was worship. Since God can Make us... why shouldn't he get a little thanks out of it. I'm not deity, but I'm guessing that's part of his reasoning. I LIKE the Big G, but I wouldn't say that he is All Good. Spiritually he provides an out, an eventual way out of suffering...but in the physical world... not so much.

**The Editor** · 12-16-2009, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by trixie

Just because you don't understand a reason,or think of one,doesn't mean there's no reason at all.

And Ed,the Devil or Satan,or the Dark One - whatever you prefer to call him- is the one that's evil. God can control him,but what's the point? People themselves decide to listen to the Devil.

For instance,in your example, the doctor in question would be locked up,it's true,because he couldn't explain his reasons.
If his reason WAS to cause pain and suffering,it's because he's listened to "the devil" and gone against his conscience- or "God" if you will. Now God will not FORCE him to believe or do anything he hasn't chosen to do for himself. That's a kind of bullying - the Devil doesn't force anyone either.

All they can do is tempt you one way or the other with potential rewards and it all comes down to choice.

Now you're saying that God "lets them happen" so he's evil.
I think most problems around the world occur because of someone's greed. If they'd just listened to their religious teachings (no religion tells you to be greedy and they all ask us to be tolerant and kind), I'm sure none of them would have a lot of problems.

Natural disasters: Do you think God is there for humans alone? What about the planet,the trees,the animals? Aren't they at least as important as a bunch of humans who have lost most of the moral values taught in these religious texts and the like?

And this is why I make disease my example in most cases. How is disease caused by greed? Why are innocent children, too young to have any concept of morality, suffering from things like malaria and cholera? God could stop it if he wanted to, but he doesn't.

btw, "Just because you don't understand a reason,or think of one,doesn't mean there's no reason at all." would not stand in a court of law, so why should it stand for God?

**Kirby** · 12-16-2009, 12:19 PM

Ed God once tryed to have us be perfect. He betrayed him. So now it is out job to prooe to him that we can be good without a perfect world and all the things an imperfect world does to us.

**leo33wii** · 12-16-2009, 02:09 PM

Who said diseases are bad? Wouldn't humans be an evil thing if we took the perspective of animals hunted by people. I mean we enslave animals and breed them so that we can eat them. To a pig or a chicken, humans can appear as evil.

Your ability to categorize things as good or evil makes me laugh. You have no idea how a lot of things are actually in gray areas.

**The Editor** · 12-16-2009, 02:32 PM

What you're saying, Kirbx, is that God is punishing people for someone else's crimes.

Wow. I want people here and now to make a note of this: Leo believes that the suffering of innocent children is not a bad thing.

**leo33wii** · 12-16-2009, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by The Editor

What you're saying, Kirbx, is that God is punishing people for someone else's crimes.

Wow. I want people here and now to make a note of this: Leo believes that the suffering of innocent children is not a bad thing.

Suffering children... not a bad thing at all

**Qoorl** · 12-16-2009, 02:41 PM

You've still got this fairy tale idea that God is All Good Ed. He's an all powerful intelligence.... when was the last time you saw one of those that was totally benevolent?

**The Editor** · 12-16-2009, 02:43 PM

This thread is about the Christian God, who is defined as both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

**Kirby** · 12-16-2009, 02:48 PM

Ed someone has to make the tough decisions like a boss has to lay people off.

**leo33wii** · 12-16-2009, 02:50 PM

Isn't heaven a nice and awesome place? By God killing people, isn't he doing them a favor? And maybe he's testing them by making the people suffer since their soul is advanced/higher level.

**The Editor** · 12-16-2009, 02:54 PM

We have no proof that heaven even exists. And like I've said before, you don't know you have a soul and it never makes its presence known, and when you die it's the bit of you that thinks and feels that is lost. You've suffered for no reason, because the only you is the physical you. A soul is a second person. It's not you.

**Kirby** · 12-16-2009, 02:56 PM

See ed he is like the big boss of the world we may lay you off but in your last minutes on the job you can do something that will last for eternity or be lost forever.

**Qoorl** · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

Ah but so am I... YWWH, The Nameless God of Christianity, and Allah are one and the same, except the Muslim Extremist Shadow, we've established that. The Hebrew God is specifically not ALL good. It's like this God is a Force... and Jesus is sort of like his concience. Jesus, an aspect of God IS all Good... THe Father/Allah/YWWH is NOT necessarily All Good. The Old Testament IS cannon to Christianity and it makes it pretty clear that he's not entirely benevolent. He's violent, vengeful, petty, and makes bets on his best followers. He can ALSO show great compassion and extreme power. He's more Three dimensional than a lot of his Followers OR Detractors generally admit.

This is all my opinion of course.

**The Editor** · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

And that has what to do with causing innocent children to suffer exactly?

Thread: The Problem of Suffering

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