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Thread: War! What is it good for?

  1. #26
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    Default Part One

    Most of these comments have nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is the general questions of "what justifies war" and "what is a true peaceful world?"

    A lot of this is based of the fundamental questions of what is right and wrong, the escalation of force, and the position of human relation to the universe versus human perspective of that.

    Instead of making this post longer, I'll simply say what I consider good and evil is: the experience of life and what goes against it. Anything that allows human to experience life and which allows life to continue is known as good in my terms. While just the opposite is what I consider evil, the prevention of life to continue and the prevention to experience life. And my ideas are not limited to "human to human interaction" but to interactions of all living things with each other.

    Now then, humans by nature will always create and/or destroy. But consider this as well: everything from nature does so as well. Fire is capable of construction and destruction, but we never call it an evil thing. Water, wind, earthquakes, etc. When nature destroys, we don't call it evil, nature is nature. But we forget that humans are from nature and that we too do the same. It is our personal opinions that determine what we call evil or not, or in other words our emotions do. How we feel about things makes us label them.
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    Default Part Two

    The Escalation of Force
    Now, I'm in the military and we've learned about the escalation of force, which is defining what we all already know. How much force to apply on something opposing us. For example, a child is being loud in public versus a child screaming for candy in public. The discipline applied to the child "A" of the first half of the example will be much less forceful compared to the child "B" in the last half of the example. The parent could tell child "A" to be quiet, which could quiet the child. While child "B" the parent can strike the kid at that moment or strike the kid privately at home.
    In the military we learn what we should do when we cannot tell if we have an enemy or not coming at us. We go through quick steps that will confirm if we have an enemy or a friendly.

    Now, WWII. America intervened because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. That's the only reason why we entered the war. Not because Hitler was killing Jews or trying to take over the world. But because Japan punched our shoulder first, and like kids, we struck back. Everything else, you already know.
    American's would like to say, and some actually do, that we fought WWII because Hitler was killing Jews. This justifies the war, but that wasn't the main reason for Americans to enter. And all reality, none of the nations entered WWII for the Jews, but because Germany hit France.
    WWII, however, can be justified to save the remaining Jews from death and prevent an evil man from world domination.

    Not all wars can be justified for such noble things. But the problem lies where if we don't have war, we're denying human nature.
    War is usually caused by an idea and if you understand and believe memetics, then you know why war must go on. It's a natural process of unnatural things.
    With meme's and applying the escalation of force, if one or more parties are against an idea, the proper level of opposing force will be applied against that idea.

    It's only natural in humans to war as an earthquake or a tornado is for nature. Humans being from nature war is just an extension of nature and can arguably be called a natural disaster.
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  3. #28
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    What I gathered from that was: "When Japan hit us, we shouldn't have hit back." I don't think that's what you meant, but that's what I felt I got out of it.
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  4. #29
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    And what where all of those people doing at the harbor? Conspiracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celery View Post
    And what where all of those people doing at the harbor? Conspiracy.
    Working, like any other day. They didn't think they were going to be blown up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight the dark Espeon View Post
    What I gathered from that was: "When Japan hit us, we shouldn't have hit back." I don't think that's what you meant, but that's what I felt I got out of it.
    As children, when a sibling hits the other, the other will retaliate.
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    As do countries, who lose their soldiers. When a sibling retaliates, they get scolded as well (in my house at least ) but with countries it'd different. No mother wants to lose her son. No children want to lose their father. War is a brutal thing...
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  8. #33
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    But it's a natural thing that we as humans must accept. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we must go against it.

    Death is something that will eventually fall upon us. It's part of life and war is just the same. We would like to see a world without war, but that is simply impossible unless you wipe humans off.
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    That's mostly true. I think someday, far far into the future, there will be very little/no war, because there will be nothing left to fight over. Mankind will have to band together, bury the hatchet, and face against something we expected for ages... The End of Days.
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  10. #35
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    No, if there are ideas, and I'm sure that there are millions of them. When two of those ideas strongly oppose each other, war will be there.
    I'm sure that there will be less war, but there will always be war, however sad that may be.
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    I'm not saying this is how the world will end, but take the Zombie Apocalypse situation, would you kill much needed extra hands because they disagree with you and your band of survivors? I think not.
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  12. #37
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    hey, here's a good way to look at it:

    listen to the song "right in two" by tool

    read the lyrics.

    soak it in.

    here's a link to both:
    song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLjrD-oXkhA

    lyrics: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25715E004EC26B


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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight the dark Espeon View Post
    I'm not saying this is how the world will end, but take the Zombie Apocalypse situation, would you kill much needed extra hands because they disagree with you and your band of survivors? I think not.
    Of course not. In a situation like that, many of use will try to survive. That is our individual goal. And since we all have similar goals, helping each other will be easy. It would be more difficult for those who would want to do it alone, and I'm sure if we had a zombie apocalypse, there will be people who think like that. What else can I do, but let them go? And if they try to destroy me, I'll have people who agree with my ideals and help me to sustain this opposition... even to his or her death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pants,_and_the_beast_dwelling_within View Post
    hey, here's a good way to look at it:

    listen to the song "right in two" by tool

    read the lyrics.

    soak it in.

    here's a link to both:
    song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLjrD-oXkhA

    lyrics: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25715E004EC26B

    With that we're now going into the realm of the Christian religion. But war is not always about land. Also, being an Angel would suck. You wouldn't have emotions, you would basically be a robot. Which makes the paradox for the angels in that song to find humans humorous when they cannot make a judgment like that.


    edit: but I do get the point.
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  15. #40
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    it is a wonderfully written philosophy haha

    and angels did have personal emotion. how do you think satan was able to rebel? :p

    but, lets get off of semantics...

    war is never ending. conflict is always going to happen. we thrive on it.


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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pants,_and_the_beast_dwelling_within View Post
    it is a wonderfully written philosophy haha

    and angels did have personal emotion. how do you think satan was able to rebel? :p

    but, lets get off of semantics...

    war is never ending. conflict is always going to happen. we thrive on it.
    It's one of those many plot holes in the bible I suppose. But anyway, enough about that. This isn't a religious discussion.

    Agree. War will always be there.
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    I just have to say that World War 2 was the first war that we actually helped the losers with too. In all previous wars it would be a cycle. One loses and one wins. The winner becomes a world power while the losers go into poverty. After 30 years or so they rebel and attack the winners again. And the cycle had been repeating itself all over Europe since the dark ages. World War 2 was the first war where someone said "Eh lets help these Nazis out so they don't try this again."

  18. #43
    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    war isnt natural. thats not a reasonable argument. you can excuse animals for being violent because their instincts tell them to: hunt, kill, eat - this is what any animal is meant to do, not doing so would be unnatural not only because its in their nature but simple cause if they don't, they die.

    as far as humans are concerned i hate that same logic being applied. its not the same context. we as evolved, intelligent beings dont have the luxury of excusing the shit we do as a cause of nature. we were an aggressive species but only because earth is an aggressive place. now weve taken over the planet, tamed nearly every inch of mother earth and all we have left of fight against is each other. that isnt natural in the slightest. its suicide of a species, or at least it mightve been if our population wasnt enormous. us fighting amongst ourselves goes against the laws of nature, not least because we fight over the stupidest shit imaginable.

    all war is in its current incarnation is a product of human stupidity. its never justified but it cannot be prevented because humans haven't evolved to the point where world peace and harmony is practical at all. we still need time to heal from the injuries we've inflicted upon ourselves for the past four thousand years. but look at the world around you, look how tolerant society has become, how much effort is being put into reducing poverty, hunger, instability and ensuring that everyone lives a good life. we've got a lot of hurdles to cross before we reach that utopia but trust me, we're getting there.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo33wii View Post
    Instead of making this post longer, I'll simply say what I consider good and evil is: the experience of life and what goes against it. Anything that allows human to experience life and which allows life to continue is known as good in my terms. While just the opposite is what I consider evil, the prevention of life to continue and the prevention to experience life. And my ideas are not limited to "human to human interaction" but to interactions of all living things with each other.
    extremely black and white way to look at things

    if your ideals were employed in the legal system then every sex offender would have the right to argue that the law against molestation prevents him from experiencing life. as would a car jacker against general notion of grand theft auto. as would a paedophile against child porn laws. how would you ever settle a conflict of wants with such a philosophy?

  20. #45
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    wait....

    so your saying if two dogs fight over a piece of meat, its natural, but when 2 countries fight over oil, its not?

    its the same concept you queef bucket! (my friend begged me to say that)

    its just basic rivalry that every creature, evolved or not, has instinctively.

    instinct is not dead in humanity.


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  21. #46
    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    can dogs have peace talks, negotiate a treaty and agree to split the meat in half and avoid further conflict

  22. #47
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    can we?

    tell me if there was ever a treaty that perfectly divided anything between 2 countries other than another country.


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  23. #48
    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    well thats the point isnt it. the head honchos mostly fail to see the easy way out. not that its always their fault: this shit is compounded by the general needs of the country, public pressure, hidden agendas, deals, money and politics.... a lot of politics. human stupidity, greed and most of all a constant disability to look at things on a wider perspective and work for the greater good. these are humanity's flaws attributed to their ability to reason, not their instinct. if we ticked by instinct alone we wouldnt even need oil.

  24. #49
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
    well thats the point isnt it. the head honchos mostly fail to see the easy way out. not that its always their fault: this shit is compounded by the general needs of the country, public pressure, hidden agendas, deals, money and politics.... a lot of politics. human stupidity, greed and most of all a constant disability to look at things on a wider perspective and work for the greater good. these are humanity's flaws attributed to their ability to reason, not their instinct. if we ticked by instinct alone we wouldnt even need oil.
    i never said we dont have intelligence.

    instinct+intelligence= idiocy

    people react the way their leaders react because they instinctively follow the person they set before themselves.

    like a school of fish.

    thinkers who deviate from that school of fish either create a new following, which results in a new school, or they become lone wolves, or fish to cope with the metaphor.

    we do have instinct, we do have intelligence, and we are complete idiots because of it :p


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    that makes no sense

    im giving you a chance to rephrase whatever you wanted to say before i break your post down

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