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Thread: Patriots

  1. #1
    doleo ergo sum Pink-kitty2's Avatar
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    So I got into an argument on Facebook with some kids in my class the other day, which essentially went like this;

    Guy 1's status: I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I GREW UP RECITING THIS EVERY MORNING IN SCHOOL WITH MY HAND ON MY HEART. WE NO LONGER DO THAT FOR FEAR OF OFFENDING SOMEONE!! LET'S SEE HOW MANY AMERICANS WILL RE-POST THIS & NOT CARE ABOUT OFFENDING SOMEONE.

    Me: Huh. On the other hand, I'm not allowed to not recite it, in fear of offending someone.

    Guy 1: I'm offended by people that don't do it and don't care that others are doing it. It annoys the hell out of me.

    Me: I don't do it. I don't care that others are doing it. I'm not going to ally myself to a country that I am only half a citizen of, nor am I going to pledge allegiance to a deity I do not believe in, in a country that is supposedly secular.

    Guy 1: Well, there's a place for people that think that, and it's called Sweden.

    Me: Huh. My bad. Didn't realise that it was Sweden that advertised themselves as "the land of the free", and whose constitution's first amendment was related to the Establishment Clause and the freedom of speech.

    Guy 2: So you're saying that you have no pride and respect for your country basically? By your argument of saying "..only half a citizen of" is probably truly invalid, considering whatever country you are from, or hold citizenship in, The United States out beats that. You really need pride in the damn country you are living in. And as for the comment about a "deity", i am most certain that there are many believed gods out there. The term "god" just doesn't go for Jesus. What about Aphrodite, Helios, Allah, Etc. God is a universal term. If an immigrant comes to our country, then obviously they like our country better than theirs, and should respect that choice by reciting the pledge. I do somewhat agree though, as an American Citizen and our great virtues, you have the right not to say the pledge. Is it really and truly ethical though? not so much. We all have to work together to accomplish things. and by doing so we have to support our country by unity, not by disobedience.

    Me: "By your argument of saying "..only half a citizen of" is probably truly invalid, considering whatever country you are from, or hold citizenship in, The United States out beats that."

    That sounds like "America is better, nyah nyah nyah" to me...

    "And as for the comment about a "deity", i am most certain that there are many believed gods out there. The term "god" just doesn't go for Jesus. What about Aphrodite, Helios, Allah, Etc. God is a universal term. "

    No. "Under *a* God" could be a universal term. "Under God" means the Christian god, as was intended by the Catholics that added it in the first place.

    I could probably find more inherent flaws in your argument, but the fanatical nationalistic vibes I'm getting make me think it won't mean anything anyway.

    Guy 2: And we are suppose to change 400 years of tradition?! I don't think so. We are One Nation Under God and that freedom flag has had blood all over it fighting for your freedom as you know it. That Preamble wasn't seen in every war, but that flag was and it is deserving of our alligence. It makes me sick to my stomach to see any American burning or dragging our flag on the ground.

    If that school you went to would teach correct American History you would be a better patriot than what you are. You would cherish that flag and that pledge.

    Overall: I believe the pledge as a pledge of patriotism and the flag is a symbol to it. Under God is the freedom it's writer was practicing when composing it. It is your choice to say or not. Just don't be one of the a**holes trying to stop others from saying it or trying to impose your beliefs on others.

    Me: They added "under god" back in the 50's. 400 years of tradition? More like 50 years of people who can't understand the difference between secular and nonsecular.

    Guy 3: If you dont like it, get the fuck out. People fight and die for America, for you, every day. I dont wanna see your pussy arguments on Facebook.

    Guy 1: That comes from my Executive Officer at my last encampment, guys.

    Me: ‎"If you dont like it, get the fuck out."

    As we previously established, I am legally a minor, and as such, cannot leave. Trust me, given the opportunity, I would be packing my bags yesterday.

    Regardless, what's with this "my way or the highway" attitude? I don't recall anyone passing any bill or suchlike that made any one person Supreme Overlord of the USA, and certainly not you. Your standards on how people should act in America are certainly not the rule.

    Anyway, people fight for a whole bunch of reasons, and not all of them are the same as yours. Not everyone is fighting for America, or for its people. Some people are fighting because the hero worship of soldiers has lead young men to be literally pushed into serving. Some people are fighting because they have been raised to see everything opposed to American beliefs, or even specifically their beliefs, as inherently evil. Some people fight because, hell, it's easier to sign up for the military than get into college half the time.

    Additionally, if you don't want to see my comments, don't look for them. This conversation was pretty out of the way, so I'm actually surprised you did see it.

    Guy 3: ‎"meh meh meh im cool cuz im emo and i want to be different and not say the Pledge cuz im a little cool emo girl". Youre not, you think its cool to be a rebellious little fucker. This country gives the freedom to think whatever you want, but you should atleast be respectful of that. If you tried to speak out about the government in Saddams rule, youd be hanging by your toes getting the shit beat out of you in some grungy basement, and you'd never see the light of day again. You whiny bitches take everything for granted, and im sick and tired of it. You have no idea of half the shit that goes on out there, so try to be grateful that you have a nice house to live in and food on the table, and God forbid you forget about your parents who just want whats best for you.
    I guess my real question is;

    Why is America so incredibly patriotic, to the point where one could call it fanatical? Is it justifiable? Should people be required to pledge allegiance no matter what their religion and culture provided they live in America?
    omae wa mou shindeiru

  2. #2
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    because americans are dumber than most people

    i might actually expound on this topic later but thats the gist of it

  3. #3
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    also lol the only time anyone does the pledge of allegiance is when they are in school. anyone who did it outside of a primary/secondary school room would be considered a lunatic

  4. #4
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    because americans are dumber than most people
    considering this guy thinks saying under god is honoring 400 years of tradition when FIRST OF ALL the us hasnt existed for 400 years, the pledge didnt exist until the late 1800s, and under god wasnt in till the 50s

  5. #5
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    "And we are suppose to change 400 years of tradition?! I don't think so. We are One Nation Under God and that freedom flag has had blood all over it fighting for your freedom as you know it."

    ahahahahaha

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    The One That Never Was beasthaxorus's Avatar
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    i put my hand on my heart i just don't say it.
    it always seems imposible until it's done-nelson mandella

    a house divided agaisnt itself cannot stand-abraham lincoln

    gotta catch'em all-pokemon


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  7. #7
    doleo ergo sum Pink-kitty2's Avatar
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    I have always stayed sitting whenever I've had to pledge allegiance. Fortunately, I've not once had a teacher who has outwardly had a problem with it.
    omae wa mou shindeiru

  8. #8
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    succinctly, excess patriotism is more widespread among those less educated and with greater economic insecurity. in general the population of the us is less educated and more economically insecure than other industrial countries, so pair that with excessive patriotic themes propagated by the media and education system, there you have it.

  9. #9
    doleo ergo sum Pink-kitty2's Avatar
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    But why is it something that seems so exclusive to America? Perhaps it's just that I haven't looked for it, but this kind of fanatical patriotism seems to only be found here.
    omae wa mou shindeiru

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    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    excess patriotism is more widespread among those less educated and with greater economic insecurity
    huh

  11. #11
    The other Cylons call me Triclops. ShadowRaven's Avatar
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    I don't see a problem with patriotism as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

    "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
    Albert Einstein

  12. #12
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    patriotism is good, but its mistaken for intolerance.


    your welcome

  13. #13
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    And we are suppose to change 400 years of tradition
    sal;fjasfd

  14. #14
    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pants, and the beast dwelling within View Post
    patriotism is good, but its mistaken for intolerance.
    its more often than not the other way around

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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    succinctly, excess patriotism is more widespread among those less educated and with greater economic insecurity. in general the population of the us is less educated and more economically insecure than other industrial countries, so pair that with excessive patriotic themes propagated by the media and education system, there you have it.
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    youre wicked cool 10/10

  16. #16
    The other Cylons call me Triclops. ShadowRaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
    its more often than not the other way around
    huh

    "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
    Albert Einstein

  17. #17
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    Huh?
    huh?

  18. #18
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
    huh
    any sort of mindless generic thing that allows someone to attach an identity to is more popular among the poorer and less educated. religion or ethnicity are more common but in a place like america patriotism works just fine.

  19. #19
    Defenestration is imminent pichubro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink-kitty2 View Post
    I have always stayed sitting whenever I've had to pledge allegiance. Fortunately, I've not once had a teacher who has outwardly had a problem with it.
    Because they can't force you to say it.

    Even in a school situation, saying the pledge is completely optional. It's just that most people don't know that because they were taught in their first few years of school to ALWAYS say it EVERYDAY.

  20. #20
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink-kitty2 View Post
    But why is it something that seems so exclusive to America? Perhaps it's just that I haven't looked for it, but this kind of fanatical patriotism seems to only be found here.
    IRA mean anything to you? If that isn't excessive patriotism I don't know what is. Most "terrorists" are either doing what they do for their country or their god. This includes revolutionaries and most politicians.

    Every country has it.

    Middle eastern countries, especially. Moreso than the US, but less advertised, I think.

    It is exactly as Tim said it was, stupid people need to believe in something greater than they are. It precludes their understanding anything more. "I follow my leader, I follow my god. That's all there is for me. That's all there is to me; I do not exist separately."

    A lot of people place their country where others place their religion; making following the dictates of whatever political movement is en vogue a fervent belief that others would reserve for the church.

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  21. #21
    if i had a horse for every time i heard that, i'd have 2 horse Pants's Avatar
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    I support the right to own a firearm DEFENSIVELY, and you should be tested mentally and psychologically for a liscence to buy a weapon. The only people who will support owning a weapon happen to be reactionary fucktards who use guns for their own sick pleasure.

    There are a few who think like me, but they are overshadowed by the waves of anti-progressive southern separatists that plague the IRA.


    your welcome

  22. #22
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    Pants, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

    I support the right to own weapons as well, but that isn't what I mean here and now.

    The IRA has been ripping Ireland apart since the English tried to take over several centuries ago. The country is still in civil war, separated north and south, because the English try to steal the Irish people's identity. They fight back, they are called terrorists.

    It is a fine example of patriotism. And I must say, I think England should simply vacate, though I can't see that they ever will.

    It's also another example of the confusion of religion and state that I mentioned. Many think they are fighting for the right to be protestant in the north and catholic in the south... But really it started when England came over and said that Ireland was then theirs.

    The IRA are constantly demonized in pop culture, in movies and television. It's pretty popular to name your villain to be ex-IRA. Take Sin City for example, and Sons of Anarchy, and dozens of others.

    Every bad guy with a bomb is fucking IRA

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  23. #23
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    ITT: Confusing patriotism with nationalism

  24. #24
    Registered Users Regular Rayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keke Le Cat View Post
    IRA mean anything to you? If that isn't excessive patriotism I don't know what is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keke Le Cat View Post
    It is a fine example of patriotism. And I must say, I think England should simply vacate, though I can't see that they ever will.
    ?

  25. #25
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Also: Saying the English should just get out of Ireland is like saying the Palestinians should just leave Israel.

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