political ramblings thread

[God]

- can we please stop calling the rich the "those most fortunate"

- re: gun laws. i dont really care about them to be perfectly honest. but after the shooting at that gay superhero movie people were saying we need new gun laws and conservatives thinking they were being smart and clever said: "BUT YOU SEE, it was illegal to have a gun in the theater in the first place! gun laws wont work because people will just break them!" or variations thereof.

ok here was laws are. social engineering. its not the law that KEEPS someone from doing the thing the law is against. the law gives law enforcement a mandate to PREVENT people from acquiring the MEANS to do it, whatever those means may be. gun laws are not going to stop people from shooting guns, they are going to make it harder for people to get and keep guns or certain types of guns. thats the point of laws. not that i care about gun laws really, the us' violence problem is a cultural thing. easy availability of guns is a FACTOR but i dont think a MAJOR one.

ok thats it.

[Pants]

so is this for arguing or just singular bursts of opinion?

[God]

the latter

[God]

i am open to it degenerating into arguing

[Celery]

Are Republicans embarrassed to be associated with people in the Republican party? Probably

[God]

- i am reading a stupid but well written book about how democracy is antithetical to 'liberty' http://library.mises.org/books/Erik%...Our%20Time.pdf

his arguments happen to be silly and are based 100% on his romantic idealization of aristocracy(the writer is of an aristocratic family) but when he says democracy is bound to, over time, lower the quality of those chosen to be the representatives because people are stupid and will increasingly not want to elect those smarter than them, he might have point.

[Pants]

i am embarrassed to have Mitt Romney and retarded redneck christian activists on my side. i really hope your ashamed to have hippies, jobless welfare mongering baby-machines, dumb teenage rebels, and the whole lot of "i hate guns they should be stopped because guns cause all crime everywhere all the time" people =/

[Celery]

jobless welfare mongering baby-machines

Here's a graph I guess http://thecentristword.files.wordpre...-socialism.jpg

[buckweat]

The fact that people still spread the idea of trickle down economics is retarded and those people should feel bad

[pichubro]

You know proud my dad is that the first president he got to vote into office was Ronald Reagan?

Pretty proud.

[Pants]

no arguing here, but for reference, those blue states are the more economically centered ones. they vote liberally for image most prominently lol

[GenghisFlan]

I say restrict bullets so people won't bitch about getting their guns taken away.

[Kirby]

Most countries honestly have similar gun laws, Canada for example has pretty much the ideal gun laws for allowing gun nuts and keeping out killers. Surprisingly the system is actually very similar to the US system outside of a few fixed up loop holes and outliers that killers use to get guns. Its more than our gun culture that leads to such violence in America.

[God]

why is it that hard core american conservatives refer to obama derisively as "anti-cololnialist"? do they realize they're supposed to love america's founding tale.

[ElijahWyatt]

- can we please stop calling the rich the "those most fortunate"

- re: gun laws. i dont really care about them to be perfectly honest. but after the shooting at that gay superhero movie people were saying we need new gun laws and conservatives thinking they were being smart and clever said: "BUT YOU SEE, it was illegal to have a gun in the theater in the first place! gun laws wont work because people will just break them!" or variations thereof.

ok here was laws are. social engineering. its not the law that KEEPS someone from doing the thing the law is against. the law gives law enforcement a mandate to PREVENT people from acquiring the MEANS to do it, whatever those means may be. gun laws are not going to stop people from shooting guns, they are going to make it harder for people to get and keep guns or certain types of guns. thats the point of laws. not that i care about gun laws really, the us' violence problem is a cultural thing. easy availability of guns is a FACTOR but i dont think a MAJOR one.

ok thats it.

Yes, but most people who will do things illegal with guns in the first place can and will use underground methods for obtaining guns after the laws are passed that make it harder, inevitably making it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns, meaning the same ammount of bad guys with guns and less decent people.

Also, noone ever talks about the fact that if a registered gun owner was carrying in that theater the entire disaster could easily have ended with one death.

Now after have said that, i believe internet gun sales that don't do background checks should be illegal, in fact all gun sales should be required to conduct a back ground check on the buyer. But increasing wait times, making the requirements harder/more rigorous is not what we need.

[Kirby]

Im sorry but regular people aren't police, roaming around with a gun on your hip like a cop is fucking stupid. Don't get me wrong, I am all for the rights of gun owners, put a gun in your house, car, truck, or even desk for self defense, hey I love the fact that I can legally mount a cannon on my front porch, this is fucking America bitch. But a line must be drawn, regular people are not cops, they shouldn't be carrying around guns to solve domestic problems like a cop, they are not trained and don't have the experience. Its not like having that gun may have even solved the issue, if everyone has guns, then the criminals with use machine guns or take out the people with guns, they don't care.

[ElijahWyatt]

When we only allow the goverment to have power we lose all of our own.
I get where you are coming from, but as we start heading towards social political melt down we really really don't need to start saying, okay if your anywhere you would actually need protection, only police(the goverment) is allowed it!

[Kirby]

I don't think it is anyone's privilege to go around toting a gun like a cop. That has never been anyone's right, if you really want to protect the people around you, become a cop. Its not like this is anything new either, all societies throughout history have your right to have weapons usually, but in the pubic square, the only people with weapons are the police.

[ElijahWyatt]

but now everywhere is public....? there is not public square, everywhere is filled to the brim with people going about their buisness, your suggestion is that you go live outside of 99% of society if you want to protect yourself going about your life where there is constant threat of danger.
I find that repugnant(no offense).
Not that i care to carry a wepon anyways, but i still think we shouldn't be just throwing complete control(of* 99% of society) to the goverment when in such a short time the population cap will soon be hit.

[Kirby]

The public square is anywhere public belonging to the government it is not your job to protect that. Examples of the "public square" are streets, walkways, conference halls. Your house is not public, your business is not public, they places where you spend most of your time, are not public, so use a gun there, have it under your pillow or the desk counter for all I care. Public places have OTHER PEOPLE not affiliated with you, if you accidentally fire a gun off at your house, who gives a shit, accidentally fire a gun with people around you, you will KILL PEOPLE. And if something god forbid does happen, what do you do, shoot them, your going to shoot a man the just stole a purseor tackle them to the ground breaking their ribs, NO, that is not correct law enforcement procedure, you do not know the law, you are not versed in procedure, you are just a fucking vigilantly, that is what you are, which is a crime.

[ElijahWyatt]

Lol, criminality doesn't stem from laws, criminality stems from wrong doing. Do you believe in all North Korean laws? or All Chinese law? Nope didn't think so, and as by the same token many americans don't believe in american law. Nor do they have to follow it. Nor SHOULD THEY follow it. That is how dictator ships rise.

Second, the only place i can see you needing a gun at that isn't public is your house. So there we agree, you need a gun to protect yourself in your own home if someone tries to breakin ect, but you don't need a gun at the office, or atleast you shouldn't. In most public spaces however, streets, walkways, conference halls, thats where MOST CRIMES ARE COMMITTED. Saying you shouldn't be able to protect yourself froma mugging because anyone can walk there is just bad, and furthermore there is nothing wrong with vigaltism.

I have never had one person be able to explain to me exsactly WHY vigalantese are so terrible. LEAVE IT TO THE GUYS IN CHARGE, who abide by restrictions, and "procedure" meanwhile in doing that the criminals can easily get away or worse, commit another crime. They might know better than the you, well by that same token, YOU MIGHT KNOW BETTER THAN THEY DO TO! The only way to fix this is if criminal prosicution matters were public record so that people with knowledge agianst or to contribute would be able to help. This would also tip off the accused that they were on to him, but they could just wait to release it till they couldn't find the person.

And noone who has ever had basic gun classes and isn't a grade A idiot would ever ever ever leave their gun off safety. Almost EVER unless they are going into a situation they know they need to be firing thier gun. You really never hear of oh shit this guy accidently fired his gud and 2 people died. That's because safety exists, meaning it will never fire if the switch is on safety. Because even with all this talk of how stupid people are getting, they aren't that stupid, especially when you take a gun saftey class that is required in most states to legally own a gun, that drills that point into your head, along with never aim at anyone ect. ect.

[Kirby]

I have no idea what your going on about, in the first part.

It really comes down to the common everyday mugging where a gun is pretty much useless. Some guys come at you, in a group, and demand your shit, if you pull out a gun to "defend" yourself, they are just going to shoot you. Even if it is one on one, the guy, is still gonna shoot you, you would of been better off, just giving your wallet away and hope you don't get shot. Remember people like this are usually not in their right state of mind, and such an opposing gun will pose no threat to them, thus no standoff, just do what they say. In your house on the other hand, you have the upper hand, you know the place and its your fucking property, you can probably put a bullet in him if need be. Also house and business theifs are usually more cunning, and ironically smarter and wimpier, meaning if they are faced with a one on one gun showdown, they are probably going to wimp out in fear of being shot. As you stated, a man with a gun at a mass shooting could stop it cold, but those are so rare they are irrelevant in the overall spectrum.

The current criminal procedure exists the way it does for a certain reason, what you think is right is simply irrelevant, I hate to say it, but the criminal justice system is about law and order. If you are a vigilanty, you take away that, you become the law and order, you have no right to do that. This isn't fucking batman, you just can't go around killing people you don't like, even batman doesn't go into broad daylight and act like a cop.

When I talk about hurting other people I am thinking to cases like the Micheal Vick incident where he shot his own fucking leg when he left the gun in his pants. Stuff like that can happen, admittedly rarely, but that may be in part that there are few people around carrying live guns.

I guess my overall point is, increasing gun laws to that extent is so unreasonable and unneeded in any 1st or second world nation that has a decent police force. Our viewpointw on this seem very at odds and I am not sure either could conceivably convince the other.

[pichubro]

The 2nd amendment made sense back when the only kind of guns people had were one-shot pistols and muskets which were stupidly inaccurate. Now that a civilian can have an assault rifle or flamethrower, the amendment is less about protection, and more about letting people play with dangerous toys. And if try to take the most fun toys away, the babies will cry.

[Solly]

Lol, criminality doesn't stem from laws

[pichubro]

Lol, criminality doesn't stem from laws, criminality stems from wrong doing. Do you believe in all North Korean laws? or All Chinese law? Nope didn't think so, and as by the same token many americans don't believe in american law. Nor do they have to follow it. Nor SHOULD THEY follow it. That is how dictator ships rise.

lol