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Thread: i feel very disconnected from modern times

  1. #26
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    it might be about to but its not significantly affecting culture yet
    Except, y'know, the medium we're using to communicate right now

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    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hicky View Post
    if society ever got to that point i would go and live in a commune which will always exist
    Well the ideal is that once human labour is no longer a necessity people will be able to do whatever they want, including becoming a hippy and living the "simple" life. Unfortunately it's starting to look like we'll all have to become luddites.

  3. #28
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solly View Post
    Except, y'know, the medium we're using to communicate right now
    the affects of the internet on civilization are nothing compared to what was going on during the modern period (late 19th early 20th century), growing industrialization, political upheaval, the birth of fast international communication, entire fields of study coming into existence, technologies popping up that had hardly been conceived of before, rapidly changing social roles, etc. the internet is basically just an expanded phone/library system. its important but not a revolution for civilization.

  4. #29
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    the affects of the internet on civilization are nothing compared to what was going on during the modern period (late 19th early 20th century), growing industrialization, political upheaval, the birth of fast international communication, entire fields of study coming into existence, technologies popping up that had hardly been conceived of before, rapidly changing social roles, etc. the internet is basically just an expanded phone/library system. its important but not a revolution for civilization.
    You're both looking at it from the wrong angle. Think about it from the perspective of the industrial revolution, and how many people that put out of work, and how much it changed the world, and how long it took to change the world. The technological age is still in its very early years, but they think its changes will be felt much faster than that of previous civilisation shifts.
    Well, I open my eyes and I see things. I've seen spirits moving through the walls. I've seen a vortex coming through the wall. I've seen amorphous little balls of light bouncing all around in the front yard through the window. I've seen giant bugs on the floor. I was in a hotel room in Amarillo, Texas, and all I remember is standing on the bed and seeing the whole wall in front of me filled with lights that were [makes popping sound] popping like popcorn out of the wall. Then I'll wake up and I go "Wow, I was standing on my bed and staring at this wall."

  5. #30
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    the affects of the internet on civilization are nothing compared to what was going on during the modern period (late 19th early 20th century), growing industrialization, political upheaval, the birth of fast international communication, entire fields of study coming into existence, technologies popping up that had hardly been conceived of before, rapidly changing social roles, etc. the internet is basically just an expanded phone/library system. its important but not a revolution for civilization.
    Also you could argue that the internet has brought change like that and more (if even on a meta scale); ie political upheaval (anon v. scientology circa 2008(?); arab spring; etc etc); fields of study coming into existence, see: technology/singularity/what we're discussing right now in terms of a robotic workforce; rapidly changing social roles: if we're going to argue that the age of technology hasn't been the cause of a much more liberal viewpoint from the general majority, that's ridiculous, and also think of how it's benefited feminism etc. etc. etc..

    Holy fuck did that paragraph go off the rails.
    Well, I open my eyes and I see things. I've seen spirits moving through the walls. I've seen a vortex coming through the wall. I've seen amorphous little balls of light bouncing all around in the front yard through the window. I've seen giant bugs on the floor. I was in a hotel room in Amarillo, Texas, and all I remember is standing on the bed and seeing the whole wall in front of me filled with lights that were [makes popping sound] popping like popcorn out of the wall. Then I'll wake up and I go "Wow, I was standing on my bed and staring at this wall."

  6. #31
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Also Solly wasn't talking about the internet but technology absolutely, which completely negates our previous posts but fuck it.
    Well, I open my eyes and I see things. I've seen spirits moving through the walls. I've seen a vortex coming through the wall. I've seen amorphous little balls of light bouncing all around in the front yard through the window. I've seen giant bugs on the floor. I was in a hotel room in Amarillo, Texas, and all I remember is standing on the bed and seeing the whole wall in front of me filled with lights that were [makes popping sound] popping like popcorn out of the wall. Then I'll wake up and I go "Wow, I was standing on my bed and staring at this wall."

  7. #32
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    My argument stems from a formula propositioned in cultural anthropology by Leslie White: P=ET. Essentially, cultural change = energy[economic capital]*technology[efficiency]. It's a pretty reductionist view of cultural change but it seems historically accurate for Western civilization, at least.

  8. #33
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    solly are you still studying anthropology? have any anthropology book recommendations other than the more well known pop-sci stuff?

  9. #34
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Yes

    Just looking at my bookshelf... Cholas and Pishtacos is an excellent ethnography, if a bit dense. The Sorrow of the Lonely and the Burning of the Dancers is a classic that I would recommend for anyone - it's a bit jargon-heavy but it's seriously engaging. My personal favourite is Whorf's stuff regarding linguistic relativity. he didn't write a single book about it, but you can find a series of essays on it in his posthumous compilation here. If you're not into the longer reads, here's a short article Whorf wrote regarding the Hopi language and scientific cognition, I would really recommend it..

  10. #35
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord View Post
    I actually stumbled onto an in-depth analysis of modern monetary theory the other nights on another forum but nope'd the fuck outta there because it was like four in the morning and I was really drunk. Anywhere I should start?
    God pls.
    Well, I open my eyes and I see things. I've seen spirits moving through the walls. I've seen a vortex coming through the wall. I've seen amorphous little balls of light bouncing all around in the front yard through the window. I've seen giant bugs on the floor. I was in a hotel room in Amarillo, Texas, and all I remember is standing on the bed and seeing the whole wall in front of me filled with lights that were [makes popping sound] popping like popcorn out of the wall. Then I'll wake up and I go "Wow, I was standing on my bed and staring at this wall."

  11. #36
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Don't you want to someday in the near future debate the merits and criticisms of modern monetary theory with lil' old Lord?
    Well, I open my eyes and I see things. I've seen spirits moving through the walls. I've seen a vortex coming through the wall. I've seen amorphous little balls of light bouncing all around in the front yard through the window. I've seen giant bugs on the floor. I was in a hotel room in Amarillo, Texas, and all I remember is standing on the bed and seeing the whole wall in front of me filled with lights that were [makes popping sound] popping like popcorn out of the wall. Then I'll wake up and I go "Wow, I was standing on my bed and staring at this wall."

  12. #37
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solly View Post
    Well the ideal is that once human labour is no longer a necessity people will be able to do whatever they want, including becoming a hippy and living the "simple" life. Unfortunately it's starting to look like we'll all have to become luddites.
    well the "hippy" ideal ( actually being aware of the changing of the seasons, having a meaningful connection to what you're eating/drinking) exists in fundamental antithesis to the idea that the fundamental "work" should all be done by robots. communal life is making sure you connect with the absolute core fundaments of existence.

    so the two social systems can't co-exist. in any society where everything is done by robots, there would crop up completely antithetical communities where one can reap what one sows as opposed to reap what robots sow. the fact of FUNDAMENTALLY 'reaping what you sow' at every level is the hippie ideal.

    what i'm saying is that these communes would certainly exist and i would therefore go and live in one if society ever got to that point, although presumably i'd have to muster some confidence.

    i think we will all eventually become luddites. robots are a nice as a theory now but if they start being rolled out on things that demand human empathy - that demand core humanity, communal values, etc. - then a lot of people will get frustrated and oppose their mass implementation. if society does become robot-orientated it will be a gradual process and that will permit plenty of time to develop alternative lifestyles, places where people say firmly "we do not want all this shit".

    already i go in my local convenience store and i see there's some bastard automated till thing, or you can get served by a real person. i deliberately never use the bastard automated till thing because it gives me no pleasure of having spoken to someone when i use it. if it gets to the point when i literally HAVE to be served by a robot, i will simply not tolerate that and join an alternative community. it'll be hard giving up modern life, but i'll be rewarded.

  13. #38
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    also most economics is utter horseshit. i have very little faith in anything anyone says who is an "economist". they are known for being habitually wrong and misleading. some economists just have no notion at all that beyond all of their theory lies actual human beings with consciousness and feelings.

  14. #39
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hicky View Post
    well the "hippy" ideal ( actually being aware of the changing of the seasons, having a meaningful connection to what you're eating/drinking) exists in fundamental antithesis to the idea that the fundamental "work" should all be done by robots. communal life is making sure you connect with the absolute core fundaments of existence.

    so the two social systems can't co-exist. in any society where everything is done by robots, there would crop up completely antithetical communities where one can reap what one sows as opposed to reap what robots sow. the fact of FUNDAMENTALLY 'reaping what you sow' at every level is the hippie ideal.

    what i'm saying is that these communes would certainly exist and i would therefore go and live in one if society ever got to that point, although presumably i'd have to muster some confidence.

    i think we will all eventually become luddites. robots are a nice as a theory now but if they start being rolled out on things that demand human empathy - that demand core humanity, communal values, etc. - then a lot of people will get frustrated and oppose their mass implementation. if society does become robot-orientated it will be a gradual process and that will permit plenty of time to develop alternative lifestyles, places where people say firmly "we do not want all this shit".

    already i go in my local convenience store and i see there's some bastard automated till thing, or you can get served by a real person. i deliberately never use the bastard automated till thing because it gives me no pleasure of having spoken to someone when i use it. if it gets to the point when i literally HAVE to be served by a robot, i will simply not tolerate that and join an alternative community. it'll be hard giving up modern life, but i'll be rewarded.
    You're arguing from a very specific axiom that is entirely subjective, "having a meaningful connection to what you're eating/drinking" is not something that requires growing your own food, or even something that most people care about.

  15. #40
    Defenestration is imminent pichubro's Avatar
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    I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we'll have robots for every manual labor. It's more efficient to use machines for hard jobs like lifting tons of weight or mass producing products, but anything else can be accomplished through human power.

    I'd like to see a robot completely run a farm. :P

  16. #41
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    You can't program a robot to run a farm, but you can program a robot to learn how to run a farm.

  17. #42
    princeso Kirby's Avatar
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    You can bring a robot horse to oil, but you can't make it drink.

  18. #43
    I do things like get in a taxi and say, "The library, and step on it. Lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pichubro View Post
    but anything else can be accomplished through human power.
    Looks like someone doesn't understand how capitalism works.

  19. #44
    Defenestration is imminent pichubro's Avatar
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    I don't see the correlation.

  20. #45
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solly View Post
    You're arguing from a very specific axiom that is entirely subjective, "having a meaningful connection to what you're eating/drinking" is not something that requires growing your own food, or even something that most people care about.
    my point was that *some* people care about it...

    "having a meaningful connection to what you're eating/drinking" is a difficult thing to explain in objective terms. but i'm fairly sure wanting to grow your own crops and cook your own meals is in some way a residual innate human need.

    perhaps if we had a robot society we could force people to live in a farm every now and then to reconnect with the world of human labour / the seasonal cycle. this is what they do in Thomas more's "utopia" - everybody just messes about educating themselves but they have to work at least some of the time.

  21. #46
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    You can't program a robot to run a farm, but you can program a robot to learn how to run a farm.
    it would take so long to do that... or we could just grow our own food, set up kolkhozes where people work together to produce food. this is a better vision for the future.

  22. #47
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    two visions for the future:
    - we deal with the surplus of our bloated western capitalist economies by producing robots to do all of our manual labour, leading to greater efficiency and maximum use of capital but loss of any connection with the seasonal cycle* / *obligatory* manual labour.
    - we learn to work together on farms, develop a political system that genuinely emancipates everybody and rid ourselves of all of the needless conveniences we've developed in the modern era. this is surely a POSSIBILIY in the eventually post-racial world of the 21st century.

    *the seasonal cycle is what gives us art and poetry. art and poetry require some (albeit abstract, loose) connection with the changing of the seasonal cycle. if we convert to a robotic economy we do not necessarily *lose* art and poetry but it becomes significantly devalued and not really understood by everybody.

    i'm aware that i'm dealing on purely subjective terms. i'm not an anthropologist and never claimed to be. just somebody who thinks that art and poetry are fundamental to everybody, that we're to some extent losing our connection with them now, and that we will do so further if we become a robot-centric economy

  23. #48
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    Hicky I have no idea wtf you're arguing anymore

  24. #49
    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    that's ok

  25. #50
    This pic is definitely of me!! Solly's Avatar
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    But seriously, anatomically modern humans evolved long before the advent of agriculture, to suggest farming is inherent to the human psyche is just as arbitrary as working in office spaces is.

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