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Thread: Communism

  1. #1
    keen as mustard The Lacemaker's Avatar
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    Default Communism

    This is mostly revolving around the ideals of communism and the effects on our economies and world, applied to real life and the changes it would make to the world as we know it. Some countries have already adapted the system or at least claimed they have so there is material to base our predictions on, with every opinion please include some sort of known fact, instances of blunder for example, to give substance to your argument.

    So what first sparked my interest was a few weeks ago I had sat down and read George Orwell's Animal Farm. To those who haven't read this book, the name is deceiving. This book is the equivalent of the Russian Revolution and events leading up to it, a clever counterpart placed into a farm situation, with animals and humans. It shows the downfall of communism on Russia and follows from the time of Karl Marx, the founder of Communism, all towards the end of the Trotsky-Stalin rivalry. For more info, refer to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_farm which lists the cultural references and the significance of the characters.

    The main plot of the book begins with a corrupt farmer, Mr. Jones, representing Nicholas the II, constantly maltreating the animals and a heavy drinker. Following the leadership of Old Major the animals prepare and plot the rebellion to overthrow the power of Mr. Jones. This is much like Karl Marx, leading a small group which grew and taught them the ideal
    Towards the end of the book, we see Joseph Stalinís reign, the apparent equality for all, shattered as power corrupted what was intended by Marx to be a nation where no poverty or wealth dwelled.

    Communism, a system idealizing for equality with all people. Itís a nice thought, but in a money-driven society I find that it simply cannot function. Our lives are filled with the classes depending on wealth, limiting our resources and supplies. There is a fine line between wants and needs which is almost always fueled by our level of wealth or importance. To me it manifestly could not work with our race, mankind, whose sole purpose in life really is to make money. Since the beginning of our time that is how our economies functioned, back to the days of bartering. The main reason would be because of goods and services, there is no motivation without some sort of reward. It is in our blood to do something for something else in return. Perhaps, centuries ago, we could've avoided this but generation after generation, the use and importance of money has been battered into our minds and ingrained. You could argue that we were made to be greedy, selfish SOBs but I would think maybe, possibly those millenniums ago we couldíve avoided the unjust economy we live in today. Obviously the past canít be changed and I would argue that there is no way out. 100 years from now it may only get worse, the gap between poor and rich widening. Communism just can't function in the world we live in today and it wonít be getting any better in the future.

    Anyway, the Discussion forum hasn't had a very engaging debate in a while now so this highly political and controvertial topic, I hope, should liven it up. I've missed a good debate.

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    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    I really don't think theres anyone insensible enough here to argue for Communism. There has really never ever been any Communist or Socialist societies in human history. Communism itself is just an abortion of Socialism, but I guess consider Marx identified it as Stateless it's a better platform for Imperialism.

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    keen as mustard The Lacemaker's Avatar
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    How about we change the debate slightly and focus more on the points raised in the 4th paragraph? I went to a lot of trouble typing it all up.

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    Everyone is shitty and weird. Me? I'm normal and cool. Giant Squid's Avatar
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    Hypothetically it's a sound theory, but when human nature is factored in it tends to always fail.

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    keen as mustard The Lacemaker's Avatar
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    Would that be by the fault of our moulded society as time goes on or some sort of genetical, natural cause?

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    Kill you? Little ol' moi? Ninetails 009's Avatar
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    As my history teacher put it, it's actually the dream of a 'perfect' world. The rich would support the poor. Equality for everyone. If this idea was to be suggested to the public, the poor would support it, the rich would disagree and protest. Mainly because it would benefit the poor and disadvantage the rich.

    I made a comparison of communisim to our class tests. If the average of all the marks were to be given to all students, there would be no 'first' and 'last' in class. Naturally the top students would feel that it was unfair, while the poorer students would be glad.

    Basically, communism will fail as long as the rich are unwilling to lose their 'elite' status.

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    keen as mustard The Lacemaker's Avatar
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    That is a valid point, it may not just be the money aspect of communism but the class of intelligence may even be abolished. Communism depends on how it is interpreted, because wealth is only one factor and you could add other aspects of level in.

    However, demonstrated by the many communist revolutions and civil outbreaks it isn't just the poor. Of all classes of people, groups are supporting it even if they are rich. Or, they may not support it but they don't have any choice. In the Russian Revolution most of the upper class people fled to the neighbouring countries such as England, Germany and such but the people's opinions aren't the highest matter, more if the system would function and stay true to the original concept. Joseph Stalin was one of the most cruel and corrupted people in history but he was originally put into power because of his Communist stance.

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    Hypothetically it is an extremely unsound theory also. How can you not take human nature into the consideration of a social doctrine? That's like not taking the laws of physics into consideration is a scientific theory. It's like me saying "If I ate garlic powder I would be able to fly" and be like WELL ITS A GOOD IDEA IN THEORY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lacemaker View Post
    Would that be by the fault of our moulded society as time goes on or some sort of genetical, natural cause?
    It's the fault of any basic instinct that ANY organism on any planet in any universe would have for survival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetails 009 View Post
    As my history teacher put it, it's actually the dream of a 'perfect' world. The rich would support the poor. Equality for everyone. If this idea was to be suggested to the public, the poor would support it, the rich would disagree and protest. Mainly because it would benefit the poor and disadvantage the rich.

    I made a comparison of communisim to our class tests. If the average of all the marks were to be given to all students, there would be no 'first' and 'last' in class. Naturally the top students would feel that it was unfair, while the poorer students would be glad.

    Basically, communism will fail as long as the rich are unwilling to lose their 'elite' status.
    I like how much the Communist Manifesto talks about the Proletariat being manipulated by the Bourgeoisie, when the idea of a Communist Revolution is by far the biggest manipulation of the Proletariat of all.

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    So you would be arguing greed is a cause for survival? That may be so, but in retrospect the things on the consumer market today are hardly needs required for survival now. For example, a toothbrush. It was a stick with bristles to clean your teeth. Next it was a shaped stick with bristles. Now, it's a seductively curved stick with tongue cleaners and some that play music. These aren't neccessary for survival and that's what makes greed. Wanting more than you need. But I can't say whether that is of our own fault or something we were born with.

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    And I'm quite enjoying our debate thus far. ^^

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    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    What's wrong with wanting more than you need? All you need it water, a bit of meat, some berries, and oxygen. Bill Gates gives a ridiculous amount to charity, he is an extremely generous person, but probably still lives in a massive fucking house with all kinds of ridiculously luxurious amenities. To say something like "WELL IF HE WASNT GREEDY HED LIVE LIKE A NORMAL PERSON AND GIVE ALL THE MONEY TO CHARITY" is ridiculous, people who take initiative, build a fortune, and are still good people simply deserve a better standard of living than others. And this comes from one of probably the top 5 poorest people here so dont be like "WELL YOU DONT KNOW THE PLIGHT OF THE WORKING CLASS"

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    That wasn't exactly the point I was making so much, to be honest third world countries and vagrants on the street don't interest me. It wouldn't be, for me, whether someone is deservant because in anyone's eyes it could be differently interpreted.
    To diverge, charities like World Vision aren't worthy causes in my eyes, mostly because in parts of Africa and such the reason there are so many starving children is because the women keep getting knocked up and having kids they can't raise.
    Now, I'm not against greed and I doubt anyone could be so 'pure' as to not have any sort of lust whatsoever within them. I never said greed was a bad thing, just that as time progresses and things are developed further into the age of over-design we have more things that make life easier but not neccessary. I guess with time and technology it just deepens.

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    To diverge, charities like World Vision aren't worthy causes in my eyes, mostly because in parts of Africa and such the reason there are so many starving children is because the women keep getting knocked up and having kids they can't raise.
    What? You can't possibly think women in Africa have as much knowledge about sex and contraception as women in the west do, can you?

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    And you can't possibly think that starving children deserve to be punished because they're mothers are "stupid"? And you can't possible think that Africa is in mess just because of stupid women getting knocked up, rather than geographical determinism, climate, disease, and wildlife and agriculture? Right?

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    The Human animal has been programmed through evolution to live in tribal societies of not really more than a hundred. That's the general number of people we care about in our lives supposedly. We can memorize a few thousand but we won't really care. Larger tribes and civilizations developed because agriculture allowed us to live comfortably and support more mouths to feed as well as safety in numbers.

    Now we live in countries of millions but even still, people in them find enemies and rivals based on differences. Whether it's Republicans vs. Democrats or Hutus vs. Tutsis, like God said, all organisms are programmed to compete amongst not only themselves, but create illusions of difference to fulfill the need for a common enemy.

    Well, kind of a roundabout way of saying this but I guess the point I'm trying to make is this;

    Communism works for robots.


    I live. I love. I kill. I catch Pokemons. I am content.

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    Vanity of vanities, all is vanity Hicky's Avatar
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    all are equal, but some are more equal than others...

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    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    or Hutus vs. Tutsis
    To be fair this is actually an argument against Capitalism.

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    Everyone is shitty and weird. Me? I'm normal and cool. Giant Squid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    Hypothetically it is an extremely unsound theory also. How can you not take human nature into the consideration of a social doctrine? That's like not taking the laws of physics into consideration is a scientific theory. It's like me saying "If I ate garlic powder I would be able to fly" and be like WELL ITS A GOOD IDEA IN THEORY.
    Not really considering that human nature isn't identical for every person, the theory was written on the assumption that most people are going to give there all to this which many did. But selfish materialistic fucks ruined it among other factors such as Stalin's totalitarian government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    What's wrong with wanting more than you need? All you need it water, a bit of meat, some berries, and oxygen. Bill Gates gives a ridiculous amount to charity, he is an extremely generous person, but probably still lives in a massive fucking house with all kinds of ridiculously luxurious amenities. To say something like "WELL IF HE WASNT GREEDY HED LIVE LIKE A NORMAL PERSON AND GIVE ALL THE MONEY TO CHARITY" is ridiculous, people who take initiative, build a fortune, and are still good people simply deserve a better standard of living than others. And this comes from one of probably the top 5 poorest people here so dont be like "WELL YOU DONT KNOW THE PLIGHT OF THE WORKING CLASS"
    Survival of the fittest bullshit has no place in an argument of ethics. Just because one man has been able to funnel everything into his life for a hollow cause like amassing ridiculous amounts of money when others have decided to explore different things in life doesn't mean it's justified that he keep every needless luxury while others starve.

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    How many people would really become doctors and lawyers when they would be making no less and living no better than a janitor or some guy who pumps gas at a gas station. Without incentive there is no ambition, and without personal ambition there is very little to go into a civilization. Anyone who has ever incited a Communist Revolution has replaced the government they were overthrowing with something much worse and more exploitive of their people. Communism is just, ironically, a much better way for the bourgeoisie to exploit the proletariat than Capitalism, and that is the only reason it is still in the least bit relevant. How many people actually gave their all to Communism without being brainwashed by propaganda and secret police forces?

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    Everyone is shitty and weird. Me? I'm normal and cool. Giant Squid's Avatar
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    There is more incentive to work than money, many did it because they thought that they were working for a better quality of life for more people. Communism promises a utopian society if everybody were to do it and that's why so many worked based on that. I suppose if you want to consider believing in an ideal propaganda you could. No doubt there were those that were driven by intimidation but the presence of this doesn't mean the former didn't exist in a large multitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant Squid View Post
    Survival of the fittest bullshit has no place in an argument of ethics. Just because one man has been able to funnel everything into his life for a hollow cause like amassing ridiculous amounts of money when others have decided to explore different things in life doesn't mean it's justified that he keep every needless luxury while others starve.
    Obviously no one should starve, but someone who has actually worked for it shouldn't feel guilty for living in a big ass house and buying advanced amenities as long as they don't think of themselves morally superior to those with less money than them. The same theory would apply to anyone who instead of making a lot of money would pursue those "different things."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant Squid View Post
    There is more incentive to work than money, many did it because they thought that they were working for a better quality of life for more people. Communism promises a utopian society if everybody were to do it and that's why so many worked based on that. I suppose if you want to consider believing in an ideal propaganda you could. No doubt there were those that were driven by intimidation but the presence of this doesn't mean the former didn't exist in a large multitude.
    I can't imagine anyone with any intelligence thinking that whatever communist or emerging communist society was for the better quality of life if they just looked around at the quality of life. There has never been a real communist or socialist state and probably never will be. I should do some research on medical staffing in various communist nations though.

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