FAO: Christians

[Ghost]

Is it possible to see Jesus in something completely secular or a non-christian person?

[God]

what

[Chikara]

Jesus doesn't exist as a person, more of a spirit, so in answer to your question, yes.

[Ghost]

Yeah I know that he is more of a spirit but my question is more of 'does something have to be christian/spiritual/godly to see his light on earth?'

[Chikara]

Do you have to be black to see a plane?

No to both questions.

[The Editor]

Actually, if you aren't a Christian and you were to see a sign of Christ, you'd intepret it as something else. Likewise, if a Christian saw a sign of the Buddha (for example), they'd interpret it as a sign of God.

[Qoorl]

Not necessarily Ed, we live in a much more open society now. Sure Religions clash, but individual practitioners don't interpret EVERYTHING as a sign of their deity. If I saw something that clearly seemed to resonate from Budha, I'd definately say "Hey wait a minute" but I don't think my mind would instantly swap Budha for Big J. THen again, Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Ghost, to your question, I'd say that Chi's right, there's no reason a non religious person can't have some sort of experience with Christ.

[The Editor]

When it comes to religious experiences, they're all suitably vague for the deity responsible to be completely ambiguous. Therefore a religious person would believe that their deity was responsible. Meanwhile, the atheist would assume it was a hallucination, because that's how stubborn we are

[Qoorl]

Maybe, I haventt had any miracles or religious visions, but if I see any I'll definately post it here so we can determing what religious figure it was related too.

[The Editor]

Cool. It'll give me a chance to see how A-Level RS compares to reality.

[Omnipotent Chaos]

I'm Christian becuase it makes sense to me, but as far as signs go, if you're looking for signs, even waking up and smelling a fart could be a sign, and people will contribute these "signs" to whatever they believe in.

[The Editor]

No it couldn't, but I see what you're gettign at. So tell us, why do you believe?

[Omnipotent Chaos]

I really don't know, I just do. I guess part of it is logic, if believe and you die and there's nothing there, what have you lost? But if you don't believe and there's something there, to put it simply, you're screwed.

[Nocturne]

That's ridiculous. If there's nothing there, then you simply die, and all feelings of pain or good feeling are gone, as is your conscience. You die, and that's the final experience or your life, lest you be revived.

[Nocturne]

And, this goes in the Theology Megathread.

[Ghost]

And, this goes in the Theology Megathread.

So fucking what.

[Omnipotent Chaos]

1, That is your opinion.

2, I didn't make this thread, and the megathread seems to be dead at the end of a tangent.

[Nocturne]

1. It's scientific fact. Everything in the universe is either matter, energy, or some combination of those two. Considering we know what the matter inside of you is, there is no monstrous spike in energy due to unexplainable reasons inside your body, and our nervous system isn't removed from our body, kept alive, and sent to some other planet to live, the idea of heaven or hell is ridiculous.

2. I wasn't referring to you, and that doesn't change the fact that it should be in the Megathread.

[Boycrazies]

I am atheist, but the whole thing is kind of confusing to me. Who made god? How did he create the people? Or the animals? I cant remember which, but one theory is that we were made of dust. If that is so, where did the blood come from? And our knowledge? So many questions, so little time.

[Ghost]

Who made god?

No one. God was the first and only thing before he created The heavens, universe and earth.

How did he create the people? Or the animals?

He created them. That's just it. God is the most powerful thing ever.

I cant remember which, but one theory is that we were made of dust.

That would be the biblical theory. That comes straight from the bible.

If that is so, where did the blood come from? And our knowledge?

God gave us knowledge and blood. Try reading Genesis the first book of the Bible.

[Teresa]

No one. God was the first and only thing before he created The heavens, universe and earth.

He created them. That's just it. God is the most powerful thing ever.
That would be the biblical theory. That comes straight from the bible.

God gave us knowledge and blood. Try reading Genesis the first book of the Bible.

God is just something that somebody made up long ago to get people to do what they wanted to. Things just didn't appear on earth because some invisible deity wanted them to, and certainly not out of dust either. I'm not saying I'm one of those Scientology people, but you have to think logically about some things, especially since there's proof that life on earth and earth itself existed way before God supposedly created it.

Anyways, I suppose a non believer could see as you put it 'his light on earth', but you could just be seeing what you want to see. My own father said he saw Jesus in the mirror in his bathroom, but I say he was fucked up drunk and was just seeing shit. Not everything is 'miracles' and 'light on earth'.

[Pikatwo]

No one. God was the first and only thing before he created The heavens, universe and earth.

No human described 'God' created the universe, especially if we're talking about the Christian God since his attributes and qualities are most widely known and contradictory. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and has an infinite existence, why did he decide to create the universe only 13.5 billion years ago? It should have always existed. What held him back? If something held him back, he's limiting his omnipotence. If he's existed for eternity and is all-knowing, he's known for eternity that he was going to create the universe, so therefore the universe should have existed for all eternity aswell, but this is illogical because it would mean he couldn't have created it. It would have always been there. So either God hasn't existed for eternity, both God and the universe have an infinite existence and both weren't created or God doesn't exist and the universe is finite and was created by itself.

He created them. That's just it. God is the most powerful thing ever.

Created them for what purpose? God would have no reason or need to create anything.

God gave us knowledge and blood. Try reading Genesis the first book of the Bible.

'God' never gave anyone knowledge. Our knowledge has been obtained through experimentation and observation.

[Ghost]

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and has an infinite existence, why did he decide to create the universe only 13.5 billion years ago?

My theory is that he created the earth 6 thousand years ago, not 13.5 billion. I don't know where you come up with those numbers.

It should have always existed. What held him back? If something held him back, he's limiting his omnipotence. If he's existed for eternity and is all-knowing, he's known for eternity that he was going to create the universe, so therefore the universe should have existed for all eternity aswell, but this is illogical because it would mean he couldn't have created it. It would have always been there. So either God hasn't existed for eternity, both God and the universe have an infinite existence and both weren't created or God doesn't exist and the universe is finite and was created by itself

God is outside of time. He created time with all other things. The mind cannot concieve what exactly or how exactly eternity is. God just 'is'.


Created them for what purpose? God would have no reason or need to create anything.[/quote] God created because he loves. He wants to love even though we are imperfect.

[Pikatwo]

My theory is that he created the earth 6 thousand years ago, not 13.5 billion. I don't know where you come up with those numbers.

I said the universe is 13.5 billion years old, I never said anything about the Earth. Learn to read.

God is outside of time. He created time with all other things. The mind cannot concieve what exactly or how exactly eternity is. God just 'is'.

Time is a measurement of motion and change. A timeless state can't contain motion or change, therefore if God is timeless, he couldn't bring about change, ie; no creating the universe. Time can't be created since creation requires time.

God created because he loves. He wants to love even though we are imperfect.

Okay. A perfect being who is supposed to be complete and lacking nothing somehow feels the need to love.

[Kittsuera]

Yeah, but adaption IS proof of evolution. There is really no proof against evolution and a massive amount of proof for evolution. Any kind of evidence you have to disprove evolution?

I myself am a Christian, but not believing in evolution is pretty ridiculous, what with it being scientific fact and all.

What I mean is that the theory it self goes to far. Sure there’s proof of micro evolution but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t in Gods plan in the first place, for the survival of his creatures.

That theory says we evolved into existence and was not created by God.

Technology is still advancing and new things are found everyday (so to speak). We don’t have all the facts.

Without time, nothing can happen. Change and motion requires time, The Editor. If I knock over a pile of bricks, it takes a second or two for them to fall to the ground. It therefore took time for my action to effect change. So how exactly can 'God' exist outside of time and effect change? It's completely illogical. If you exist outside of time you're essentially powerless.

Exactly my point. God existing outside of time and is thus not bound by the laws of physics or logic.
“And they said to him, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority to do these things?” But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one question; then answer Me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things: “The baptism of John- was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘from,’ He will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ “But if we say, ‘From men’”- they feared the people, for all counted John to have been a Prophet indeed. So they answered and said to Jesus “We do not know.” And Jesus answered and said to them “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”-Mark 11:28-33

I never claimed that I expected we should be able to comprehend all of his knowledge (for the sake of argument I'll assume he exists), what I was implying was that all of the knowledge we have which has benefited us has been obtained by us, not given to us by God. The Bible hasn't given us any beneficial knowledge whatsoever.

The bible is like the users manual for humans. It teaches life’s lessons. With out knowing the past you are doomed to repeat it.

You already believe that his existence is fact, so what difference would it make exactly? And doesn't the Bible mention God speaking to people directly? Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of faith? Would love to hear your response. And if you're going to argue that believing is trusting in something you can't see or necessarily prove, then why don't you (I'm assuming you don't, but it's a pretty good assumption) believe in unicorns, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and invisible flying refrigerators?

Yes the Bible does mention God speaking to people directly.

“And he [the Lord] said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind and earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.” --Kings 19:11-12 (KJV)

Even though he can speak directly to the people, not everyone is willing to stop and listen. It is by faith that people must believe.

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then why don't you (I'm assuming you don't, but it's a pretty good assumption) believe in unicorns, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and invisible flying refrigerators?

Unicorns may exist for we don’t know everything that is in this world.

Santa Claus in essence existed/ exists.

“Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes. He was very religious from an early age and devoted his life entirely to Christianity. In Europe (more precisely the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and Germany) he is still portrayed as a bearded bishop in canonical robes. In 1087, the Italian city of Bari, wanting to enter the profitable pilgrimage industry of the times, mounted an expedition to locate the tomb of the Christian Saint and procure the remains. The reliquary of St. Nicholas was desecrated by Italian sailors and the spoils, including his relics, taken to Bari [8] [9] where they are kept to this day. A basilica was constructed the same year to store the loot and the area became a pilgrimage site for the devout, thus justifying the economic cost of the expedition. Saint Nicholas became claimed as a patron saint of many diverse groups, from archers and children to pawnbrokers.[10] He is also the patron saint of both Amsterdam and Moscow.[11]” -- Wikipedia.com

Also


The Easter Bunny, did you know in Australia they have Easter Bilbies?

Invisible flying Refrigerators?! That’s a new one to me. I believe its possible but highly in probable at the moment.

Tell me. Why exactly did God create human beings with the ability to commit evil? If he's all-knowing (omniscient), all-loving (omnibenevolent) and eternal, then it makes sense that he's known for all eternity that human beings would lead a miserable existence full of violence and war, so if he's supposed to be compassion, why did he create us with the ability to commit evil knowing all of this would happen? If I foresaw that my son or daughter was going to drive themself off of a cliff on the 10th of July 2035, I'd make damn sure that I prevent that from happening by removing anything that causes those circumstances to arise. If God was all-powerful he could have easily created humans with free will, with the ability to do only good, so why didn't he?

Well that’s actually our (I’m refering to Adam and Eve) fault. By eating the forbidden fruit they opened them selves to evil. They died in the spirit and so were cut off from God for god is of the spirit. They no longer had God living in them only there selves and the voice of evil. While they were still able to here God’s voice they had become vulnerable to the things of the world.
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“then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the live stalk, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he Created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that that moves on the ground.”
Then God said, “I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-- everything that has the breath of life in it-- I give you every plant for food.”
And it was so.” -Genesis 1:26-30

He originally created us to rule over the earth but we basically handed over the title deed to the devil (Its like the son sold the farm for a couple of rotten eggs)
Eventually God sent his son to earth to pay the price of our sins and in the process took back what we had given the devil. (It’s like the father bought the farm back.)

He basically did make us with the ability to do only good as the whole world was ours to rule over. There was only one thing God said not to do…

“The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” --Genesis 2:15-16

What spirit? You mean that apparently non-quantifiable energy that's supposed to be the source of our sentience? Sorry, that doesn't exist.

The breath of life.
““Spirit” means literally “wind” or “breath” in the Bible” -- an explanation from the Student Bible.

[/QUOTE] So he would have emotions like hatred, jealousy and greed? Okay then, he's imperfect.[/QUOTE]

Greed is wanting that which isn’t yours. He created the heavens and the earth there for he already has it.

I never mentioned a thing about dust, so I don't know who you're trying to prove wrong exactly.

No but…

I am atheist, but the whole thing is kind of confusing to me. Who made god? How did he create the people? Or the animals? I cant remember which, but one theory is that we were made of dust. If that is so, where did the blood come from? And our knowledge? So many questions, so little time.

That isn't evidence of anything. There are rare cases where cancers are known to go into a submissive or 'dormant' state then reappear later. There have also been plenty of 'miracle cancer cure' hoaxes aswell. And tell me, why are there zero documented cases of amputees who prayed to God having their limbs 'miraculously' grow back? Why aren't people in a vegatative state ever snapped out of it by God despite the prayers of their family members? Seems that the all-powerful God is pretty choosy about what conditions to cure.

Documented in the bible, yes?
Because they probably don’t believe its possible; faith is needed. Many people try to put God in a box, only believing Him for the small(some) things and not in all things.