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Thread: Where does your heart lie?

  1. #51
    Pokemon Champion Mario The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Ha ha, Tim beileves in religon


  2. #52
    In Soviet Russia, Editor is protected from YOU!! The Editor's Avatar
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    It's a fact that belief in God is independent of logical arguments: indeed, any such arguments for God are there to justify that belief with reality rather than be its basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
    'It's there for us to eat. Either it's good or it's bad, either they want to feed us or to poison us. If it's poisonous and we don't eat it they'll just attack us some other way. If we don't eat it, we lose out either way.'
    'I like the way you're thinking,' said Ford. 'Now eat one.'
    Hesitantly, Arthur picked upon of the things that looked like pears.
    'I always thought that about the Garden of Eden story,' said Ford.
    'Eh?'
    'Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?'
    'Yes of course I do.'
    'Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, "do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple." Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.'
    'Why not?'
    'Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.'
    'What are you talking about?'
    'Never mind, eat the fruit.'
    Now riddle me this, Kittsuera: why, if God knows how curious and reckless humanity is, does He leave a tree we are forbidden to eat from (making us even more interested) in the middle of a not-very-interesting garden, and then add a clearly evil serpent to encourage us to take a bite? Surely we must accept Ford's conclusion that God is a git who was out to get us.

  3. #53
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    Because he intended for us to sin, always. Without sin the world would be a dull place.

    Assuming everything in the bible is true then god created heaven and earth out of boredom.

    Assuming everything in the bible is true then god intended people to be evil, to be good, to be everything in between.

    Preordainment MEANS he intended for EVERYTHING to be as it turned out to be. History is as god wants it to be. His plan is for you to be as you are. Saying someone is not fulfilling their destiny is bullshit because the nature of fate is to be self fulfilling.

    God wrote the history of mankind before there was a separation in the firmament and the water, before light was separated from darkness god intended for me to be agnostic.

    He intended for Hiroshima to be bombed, he intended that people should die in the world trade center on 9/11, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Atheists... All will die on one fateful day in the manner in which he chose at the inception of time.

    Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Genesis 1:2-5

    In everything there is a balance. The world has to be balanced. For every believer there are non-believers. For darkness there is light, for evil there is a counterbalancing good.

    If you search and find evil you will find good. At the end of the darkest night you will find light.

    This is a fundamental truth you do not need religion to understand. But the bible lays it out pretty plainly.

    Even your benevolent god intended there to be evil and for men to be evil and for the hearts of men to contain evil, but also good.

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    Kittsuera, you really need to be exposed to arguments and philosophies and have your beliefs challenged. If you are debating about religion, citing a source from a religion text in your favor is about as irrelevant as it gets.

    How do you know God exists?
    The bible you quote has been manipulated and edited thousands of times over for the political gain of empires and the Catholic Church. How can you put so much faith in such an edited and exploited text?

    I am not speaking out against Christianity. I am speaking out against you being sheltered from debate about religion - you need to learn how to defend your beliefs logically, how to have them challenged, and not to accept them as fact, but just as that - belief.


    a fine point indeed.

    Kitt, you surely must be able to provide us with some better forms of defense for your side of this argument. I am actually incredibly curious to hear what you have to say concerning your point of view, but I'd like to see some points from different sources
    When the Devil is too busy
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  5. #55
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    It's called faith. Dumb, blind faith.

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  6. #56
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    At the moment Kittsuera seems to be acting like the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Clarkson, Born to be Riled
    It doesn't even climb on a soapbox when stupid environmentalists go on the news to spout a lot of nonsense about pollution. The report tells us that cars are killing everyone, a man with a beard backs this up and then it's back to the studio with Michael Cheerful Buerk.
    Here we are, the environmentalists, claiming we know better than you. Why don't you stand up on your soapbox for the religion you've sworn to protect?

    I probably wouldn't go that far, Keke. Did you know? that most belief comes from either personal experience of God or hearing the testimony of those who have had such an experience. It's not blind, groundless faith; you know if you've had a religious experience. And it's not something a Christian would lie about, is it?

  7. #57
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    And it's not something a Christian would lie about, is it?
    Yes, it is. My father was a pentecostal preacher. People "went out in the spirit" and peeked through their eyelashes every sunday. The best way to fake having the holy spirit enter you and speak through you is just to remember these words, "A bow tie. A pinto." Say that over and over and it sounds like god is speaking in Tongues through you. I can't remember what that translates to, or how you really spell the words that sound like that, but you would be surprised how many people go out in the spirit to wake and say those words repeatedly.

    Someone may have taught them about god, but their belief is based on faith. When I first started having questions about why I should believe in something that makes absolutely no sense and was translated by catholics anyway (IE: King James Bible) my dad bought me a pendant that consisted of a tiny glass orb with a mustard seed in it. The Bible says that with the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountains. You have to keep the faith, the devil tempts you, even as he tempted christ, with these thoughts of logic but you have to overcome it with faith. Moses parted the sea with faith, the least you can do is believe in god.

    I took this shit in with my mother's milk.

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    All those people trust the person who says "I have felt God." In the Bible, Moses comes and says he has spoken with God. And everybody trusts him. Why would he lie? To get a bit of power? And what did he do with that power? He led some people into a desert and established some rules to live by. If he was in it for the power, he wouldn't go for that. The same thing goes for the Church. When Christianity started there was no Pope, there was no Church. These things came in later. Now, I'm not saying the Church is perfect or anything. However, it built itself up on a solid foundation of people who trusted someone who, quite frankly, had no reason whatsoever to lie.

  9. #59
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    Now adays when people hear voices we put them in institutions and medicate them.


    People claim to feel god now. They claim to be possessed of a holy spirit that talks through them, they pass out in said spirit and see visions. Some kiss venomous snakes because god wouldn't let them be poisoned. It's a test of faith.

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  10. #60
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    If a person who is insane claims something that isn't true, are they lying? They believe it to be true. They may be mistaken about what the truth is, but that does not make them a liar.

  11. #61
    Guardian of the Dimensions Kittsuera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Editor View Post
    It's a fact that belief in God is independent of logical arguments: indeed, any such arguments for God are there to justify that belief with reality rather than be its basis.
    Now riddle me this, Kittsuera: why, if God knows how curious and reckless humanity is, does He leave a tree we are forbidden to eat from (making us even more interested) in the middle of a not-very-interesting garden, and then add a clearly evil serpent to encourage us to take a bite? Surely we must accept Ford's conclusion that God is a git who was out to get us.
    With out the tree we wouldn't have the choice to do evil. With out that choice we would be only doing good because that's all we could do and all we would ever know. The thing is with only those choices we would be biological robots. As we were created in His image we were given free will. If we didn't have a free will we would have been created in the image of robots and not Him.

    ---
    For me a few examples would be that many of the things I ask him are answered one way or another.
    Iíve asked God to let me see a fox in my town near my house. And wouldnít you know it I saw a fox in my town, near my house. Coincidence you say? Iíve asked god to be healed from sicknesses and with in a few hours I am. While other people have the same sickness and are still sick for days. ĎWhy are they?í you might ask, well with out faithfully believing that they are free from sickness then theyíll continue to be sick until it passes. Iíve asked God to not get sick for days and if there was a strong sickness going a round and I some how got it then it wouldnít last long or have any where near the strength it should have. Iíve been blessed through faith in Him beyond what I could expect possible for me. When I wanted things I rarely ask, sometimes only asking Him and I some how get what I asked Him for; be it money, games, opportunities, more time, help, safety of others, etc.
    There are many better examples of Godís existent and among them was when one of the members of the churchís older sons who was going through troubles, having several kids and many other problem. He got a gun went out onto a deserted road in his car some where. He then grabbed the gun and only had one bullet. He put the gun to his head intending to end his life but his mom was praying for him and when he pulled the trigger it jammed. After that he called his mom up and told her what had happened.

    I donít just put faith into the words in the Bible by it self but I pray before and learn from the teachings within, my faith is in God; I have the words speak to me with in my heart so that I know what Iím being told, what is meant. I realize that the bible has been edited and such for many years I know this, but if you take the text and apply it to the facts and logic of this world, studying it and understanding what it is meaning then it is useful to understanding the spiritual things.
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  12. #62
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    For me a few examples would be that many of the things I ask him are answered one way or another.
    I’ve asked God to let me see a fox in my town near my house. And wouldn’t you know it I saw a fox in my town, near my house. Coincidence you say? I’ve asked god to be healed from sicknesses and with in a few hours I am. While other people have the same sickness and are still sick for days. ‘Why are they?’ you might ask, well with out faithfully believing that they are free from sickness then they’ll continue to be sick until it passes. I’ve asked God to not get sick for days and if there was a strong sickness going a round and I some how got it then it wouldn’t last long or have any where near the strength it should have. I’ve been blessed through faith in Him beyond what I could expect possible for me. When I wanted things I rarely ask, sometimes only asking Him and I some how get what I asked Him for; be it money, games, opportunities, more time, help, safety of others, etc.
    Man ... you're not really 19 are you?

  13. #63
    what about .. eyebrows God's Avatar
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    I mean, that is rather naive. Instead of making sure you get unsick a few days before most people, shouldn't God have better things to do ?

  14. #64
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    But if you believe in the bible and thus preordainment then god always intended man to eat of the tree. He intended sin to be found.

    You are avoiding my comments on preordainment, probably because you don't understand it. Ask your pastor about preordainment.

    Lets assume for arguments sake that god exists, he created all, he has a plan for everyone and everything.

    If god created all and has a "plan" for all things... Why is there evil? Why did he plan sin? Why did he plan war, crime, famine, rape, devastation? Why does he plan abortion? Why does he plan for right to life christians to bomb family planning clinics and kill doctors, patients and nurses?

    You can't answer that and keep your faith in a benevolent god.

    Good things come from god, bad things come from the devil? God planned the devil. God planned all.

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    So, God put the tree there to test what we would do with our free will, right? Now, I'm sorry, but what kind of idiot tests your trustworthiness with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? You use something useless and expendable, putting the big important things somewhere safe. "Don't eat the rabbit." *eats the rabbit* What? Oh, yeah, uh... "Right, you're daft, but that's okay, no harm done." Wouldn't that have been so much cleverer?

    And I think you're being astoundingly selfish. Unless a disease is life-threatening be a man and take it. I'm sure God has far more important things He needs to be doing. And does anyone know why praying for big, important things has absolutely no effect, while little things supposedly happen all the time?

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    Kittsuera has obviously not watched that amazingly gripping epic I posted earlier (no sarcasm it holds your attention) so I have something more simple for you to look at.

    "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Time Enough For Love, by Robert Heinlein

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    I just thought of something: why do I have Cystic Fibrosis?

  18. #68
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    The devil is trying you like he did jesus in the desert, like he did job, god is allowing it to happen to test your faith.

    RC: That is kind of the point I was making.

    If god has a plan for everyone and everything, then he also had a plan for lucifer. If in the beginning there was nothing but god, no concept except for god then god created all concepts, even that of evil. If god created evil god isn't good, god is at best neutral.

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  19. #69
    cogito ergo doleo Keke Le Cat's Avatar
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    Oh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittsuera View Post
    Iíve been blessed through faith in Him beyond what I could expect possible for me. When I wanted things I rarely ask, sometimes only asking Him and I some how get what I asked Him for; be it money, games, opportunities, more time, help, safety of others, etc.

    God granted you games when you had no other way of getting them? With gifts of technology like mana from heaven, why aren't we all christian?

    I think I will convert, I want games and money too!

    Did it never occur to you that the money came from another avenue, as did the games? I doubt God owns the Best Buy chain and just distributes games as he sees fit to believers who ask it of him.

    CHILDREN are dying all across Africa and South-East Asia and all he can do is GIVE YOU GAMES AND MONEY??!?!??!??

    DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS??!??

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    And what about all the people in the world born with terminal genetic diseases, some of which are ultimately untreatable? Children who are murdered? Starving? The homeless, the disadvantaged, the weak and the persecuted? My friends, do we really believe that against this backdrop we can still have a loving and all powerful provider?

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    Furry Authority RedCheetah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Editor View Post
    And what about all the people in the world born with terminal genetic diseases, some of which are ultimately untreatable? Children who are murdered? Starving? The homeless, the disadvantaged, the weak and the persecuted? My friends, do we really believe that against this backdrop we can still have a loving and all powerful provider?
    You're beating a dead horse. You're arguing the details of the religion when you should be arguing the religion itself. You're letting him use the ammo in the bible when you should be debating on an entirely different level where the bible itself is under scrutiny and cannot be used as evidence. If you go against a true believer of a religion you're not gonna win by griping about details and flaws in logic.
    "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Time Enough For Love, by Robert Heinlein

  22. #72
    Takin' candy from a baby! Zack Attack!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittsuera View Post
    God created us to be with Him. (Genesis 1,2)

    Our sins separate us from God. (Genesis 3)

    Sin cannot be removed by good deeds. (Genesis 4 - MalachI 4)

    Paying the price for sin, Jesus died and rose again. (Matthew - Luke)

    Everyone who trust in Him alone has eternal Life. (John - Jude)

    Life thatís eternal means we will be with Jesus forever. (Revelation)

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    What, are you trying to redeem yourself for not being able to spell? Stop going to church, and learn how to flip a burger. Religion isn't living your life, it's living your life through god, and that's not what animals do. Why do we have to act as if something else created us an worship on it, when the bitch doesn't come down and welcome himself on his own time. I'll repeat a famous phrase for you now. " I'll believe it when I see it!"
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  23. #73
    Guardian of the Dimensions Kittsuera's Avatar
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    I was just saying the small things that He has done for meÖ
    Just because he helps in one thing doesnít mean he canít help in another big or small.
    ---

    His Plan will come to pass as His is His Plan but weather your in it or not is you choice. Think about this for a moment; say your witting a book in role play form and you have people who can represent the individual characters. You have a story already mapped out and you know basically what needs to happen from point A to point B. You tell the people who can represent the characters that all you need from them is a profile submitted to show that your willing to be a part of the story. The other thing you tell them is that they need to faithfully stay with the role play, follow the rules, and to listen to your word. Now once the whole thing is started you leave the sign upís open so others may join if they should want to be a part of it. As the role play progresses some of the people lose faith in it and drop out. Their character will be missed but their choice doesnít stop the story from progressing. Since their character didnít die they just vanish from the story and itís explained that they something all of a sudden came up and they left. Along the way some of them come back and you are willing to let them back in with their same character. They missed many things that could have benefited the character but they are again apart of the plan.

    That which is evil in his eyes is evil; the things that are wrong, in His eyes, is evil. The devil has no real power, only the power to persuade you to do things that are wrong in the Lordís eyes or things that are not necessarily wrong but are a hindrance to your walk with God.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Editor View Post
    So, God put the tree there to test what we would do with our free will, right? Now, I'm sorry, but what kind of idiot tests your trustworthiness with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? You use something useless and expendable, putting the big important things somewhere safe. "Don't eat the rabbit." *eats the rabbit* What? Oh, yeah, uh... "Right, you're daft, but that's okay, no harm done." Wouldn't that have been so much cleverer?

    And I think you're being astoundingly selfish. Unless a disease is life-threatening be a man and take it. I'm sure God has far more important things He needs to be doing. And does anyone know why praying for big, important things has absolutely no effect, while little things supposedly happen all the time?
    Ok, then say God said ĎDo not eat this rabbit or you will surly die.í then if you ate the rabbit you would surly die, for God does not lie. He may forgive you but you will die, maybe not at that moment but you will die. This body will die but your spirit, your sol can still be come new again through Jesus. All you must do is accept Him as your Lord and savior from your sins.

    Which is easier to believe, finding a quarter on the ground or finding a $100 dollars on the ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Attack! View Post
    What, are you trying to redeem yourself for not being able to spell? Stop going to church, and learn how to flip a burger. Religion isn't living your life, it's living your life through god, and that's not what animals do. Why do we have to act as if something else created us an worship on it, when the bitch doesn't come down and welcome himself on his own time. I'll repeat a famous phrase for you now. " I'll believe it when I see it!"
    If you wait until then, It will be too late. I donít what you to regret those words.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedCheetah View Post
    You're arguing the details of the religion when you should be arguing the religion itself.
    I dare say the Problem of Evil is a major concern for the religion itself, considering it attacks the concept of God.

    I think God would have been less annoyed if man still didn't know about good and evil.

    Why does God worry about probability?

  25. #75
    Furry Authority RedCheetah's Avatar
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    Yes but that gets you sucked into the whole "is there isn't there a god and we can never understand his motives" issue. Attacking the symbology, the bible, showing where it came from and how it's far from divine, that is where the evidence is and that evidence is what separates theorycraft from fact. Also, if you present evidence and they dismiss it for no good reason then you can claim they're delusional. Not that any of us doubt that by now but there's something to be said for rigor.
    "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Time Enough For Love, by Robert Heinlein

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